Phaeton :: Sudden Loss Of Power When Driving At Around 140KM/H On Highway
Aug 17, 2009
I've been driving my V10 for 3 years now without a problem. The other day, while I was on the Highway in Italy driving at around 140KM/H, I suddenly had a loss of power. I could continue to drive the car, but I had no more tork... I stopped at the next gas station, turn the engine off, turned it on again, and the car drove normally again as before. About 200KM later the same happened again...
I went to check with the dealer - he hooked up the car to the computer - and told me that they had to change both turbos... What I find weird is that when I turn the car off and on again it works again. If the turbos would be defective, they wouldn't work again just by turning the car on and off. I think that it is more a problem with the turbo controller and if that's the case why change both turbo.
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On my '03 Santa Fe 2.7, this has happened twice, with 500 or so uneventful miles in between. At highway speed, it just all of a sudden loses power and will only go about 50 mph with accelerator to the floor. When you stop & put in neutral, it only revs to about 3000 rpm, with pedal to the floor -yet idles fine. Then when you shut it down, wait a few minutes & start it back up, it's fine. Is this a fuel problem or what?
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I've been having this problem where as i'm driving (mostly highway) all of a sudden I get the feeling like i've let go of the gas pedal but I haven't. The mpg meter goes from about 40 to 100 as if its on straight battery power and I have to really press the pedal down to get any decent acceleration. Once in awhile i'll get the big orange triangle warning and the little pic of an exclamation point in an outline of a car. But after a day it may go away.
One time it didn't and I brought it in. I spent 80 bucks for them to find nothing wrong and say the alert had something to do with an oxygen sensor (its was awhile ago, i dont quite remember exactly)
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The primary electric fuel pump in the fuel tank of my 2004 W12 failed last month, shortly after I had set out on a cross-Canada trip from Vancouver Island to Toronto. The whole process of diagnosing and identifying the cause of the problem, mitigating it so that I could continue the trip, and finally replacing the fuel pump was kind of complex, so, here's the write-up.
The problem presented itself as a surging of the engine - a momentary loss of power - at normal highway operating speeds. The onset was progressive, but it didn't take very long - only about 60 miles of driving - from the first little cough of the engine until total failure of the pump. The first indication was failure of the car to maintain speed (while on cruise control) when climbing hills. That progressed to failure to maintain speed on flat surfaces, and finally led to the car coasting to a stop, engine stalled, at the side of the road.
I soon learned that if I floored the accelerator pedal and held it against the floor, the car would cough and burp for a few seconds, then take off like a rocket. So, for the next 40 miles, I coaxed the car into the next city by flooring it, accelerating to about 80 MPH, then coasting until the speed dropped to 20 MPH, and flooring it once again and accelerating to 80 MPH. Fortunately, I was on a remote road with few other cars, and no police.
I checked the fuses for the two fuel pumps - fuses 34 and 35 in panel C (above the left battery), and they were both OK.
The next day, I visited a VW dealer in the Canadian Rocky Mountains, and together with the parts manager and one of the technicians, we looked at the Self-Study Guides (SSGs) for the Phaeton, and looked at wiring diagrams. Eventually, we came to a tentative conclusion that the primary electric fuel pump in the fuel tank had failed. The SSGs stated that the primary electric fuel pump (the pump on the right side of the car) operates all the time, and the secondary electric fuel pump (the pump on the left side of the car) only operates during starting and during 'periods of high demand'. That made sense to us - the car started fine, and worked OK when the accelerator pedal was held to the floor (high demand). It just didn't work worth a darn at any other time... the engine would stall, or, the car would not accelerate at all.
Here are two illustrations taken from the SSGs that describe how the fuel delivery system works. The first image is taken from the 'Phaeton Overview' SSG, which applies to all vehicles. The second image is taken from the W12 engine SSG. I kind of suspect that all the Phaetons operate in the same way, regardless of engine, because the fuel tank in all the Phaetons has the same shape - two lower lobes, which means two pumps are required.
Descriptions from the SSGs
I think that there may be an error in the description above. My experience suggests that the right hand pump (identified as G6, above) is the primary pump, and the left hand pump (identified as G23) is the one that switches on during starting and periods of high demand. Note also how the identification of G6 and G23 in the illustration above is reversed from what is shown in the illustration below. I believe that the text and illustration below is correct, and the text and illustration above is incorrect.
The 'effects of failure' in the description above would, I believe, make sense if it was the left-hand pump that failed. In my case, the right hand pump failed, and the effects of failure that I experienced were as I set them out in the beginning paragraphs of this post - quite different from the 'effects of failure' of the left hand pump that are described in the SSG above.
After coming to the tentative diagnosis that the primary electric fuel pump (the right hand pump) had failed, we checked the parts stock status in North America. There was one pump in stock, but it was in the United States, and being that it was a Thursday, the pump could not be delivered before the following Tuesday. I didn't want to spend that much time waiting for it, so, we started thinking about other possible solutions.
If we could somehow get the secondary electric fuel pump - the pump on the left side of the car that only operated during starting and heavy demand - to operate, that just might put me back on the road again. So, I removed the plastic cover from the small relay that operates the secondary pump, and wrapped a rubber band around the relay, thus keeping the relay in the closed position. A short test drive proved that this solution worked just fine, the car once again operated normally. The only "problem" was that the last 25% of the fuel in the tank would be unusable, because that fuel would be left behind in the right-hand lobe of the tank - the lobe with the defective primary fuel pump.
Electric Fuel Pump Relays
Here is an illustration from the Phaeton wiring diagrams identifying the various relays above the left battery.
Here you can see the two relays for the electric fuel pumps. They are identical part numbers.
Here you can see the relay for the secondary electric fuel pump, with a rubber band wrapped around it to keep it continually closed.
Aside from the loss of use of the last 25% of the fuel in the fuel tank, the car worked just fine with the secondary electric fuel pump running all the time. There were no problems noted even under heavy acceleration. It was, however, necessary to physically remove the rubber-banded relay from its position in the relay panel whenever the car was shut down for more than half a hour. The power to this relay comes from Terminal 30 (battery direct) - it is not switched on and off with the ignition as Terminal 15 power is. This meant that if the rubber-banded relay was left in position overnight, the left hand battery would totally discharge, because the fuel pump would operate continuously all night. I discovered this the morning after the first night...
So, for the next 8 days, I drove across Canada, removing the relay each night and replacing it each morning. I didn't bother to remove it when I stopped for meals or fuel. The rest of the 3,000 mile trip was uneventful - except once, when I let the fuel tank run down a bit too close to the 1/4 full mark, and the car began surging again because the left hand lobe of the fuel tank (with the functional secondary pump) had emptied out. That was a close call, but I managed to get to a gas station and refuel.
After arriving in Toronto, I called the parts staff at my home VW dealer and ordered a new primary electric fuel pump. I discovered that the left and right hand pumps are slightly different (the various hoses coming out of the pumps are different), and I also discovered that a pump costs about $400. The parts staff suggested I order two seals (one for each side of the tank), because I would have to remove both the right and left fuel tank covers to change the right pump. The seals were not expensive.
Here are two pictures that illustrate where the pumps sit in each lobe of the fuel tank. Note the fuel filler port on the left side of the pictures (as we know, it is on the right side of the car) for orientation.
Phaeton Fuel Tank, showing pumps
Fuel Pump Access Panels
Below is a picture that shows where the access panels to the two fuel pumps are. It's easy to get to these access panels, just remove the carpeted panel from the floor of the trunk.
Here's a close-up of the right side (primary) electric fuel pump access panel.
The instructions (from the VW Repair Manual, or the ELSA / ErWin system) for replacing the fuel pump are quite well written. The repair manual suggests that the fuel tank be drained before replacing a pump. I didn't want to drain the tank, so, I ran the fuel level down as low as I dared (remembering that 1/4 full is effectively 'empty' with a failed primary pump). That proved to be adequate.
There are a heck of a lot of steps involved in disconnecting all the hoses and loosening the various components before the pump can be removed. I strongly suggest that anyone attempting this task have a printed set of instructions before starting disassembly.
The fuel pump has quite a few hoses and connections on it, but fortunately, each connector is unique in design, thus it is not possible to hook things up the wrong way when installing the new pump. It is possible to 'lose' a hose inside the tank... for this reason, I attached a small piece of string to each hose I disconnected from the pump.
The process goes more or less like this:
1) Remove the two 404 relays, to ensure no power is sent to either fuel pump.
2) Lift the rubber cover, and remove the electrical connections from both pumps (left and right).
3) Using a special tool, lift up the three fasteners that hold the cap over top of the access panel (these are NOT threaded fasteners!)
Here is a side view of the three fasteners that hold the plastic cap in place - they are friction fit, not threaded.
4) Now you have a clear view of the access panel. It will probably be dusty and rusty, and should be vacuumed clean before proceeding, to prevent crap from falling into the fuel tank when the cap is removed. The rust is due to condensation forming on the cold metal part whenever the car is filled with cold fuel from an underground storage tank.
5) A special VW tool is used to remove the locking ring from the access panel.
6) After removing the locking ring, I buffed it up with a wire brush to remove surface corrosion.
7) The plastic access cap can now be lifted. There are two electrical connectors on each fuel pump, but three possible fittings on the plastic cap. Fortunately, the three fittings are keyed differently.
8) This is what you see inside the tank after removing the plastic cap.
9) After following all the detailed instructions for disconnecting and stowing hoses, disconnecting the fuel measurement probe from the pump housing, etc., it is possible to lift the pump out. It will be full of fuel.
10) The old and new pumps, side by side. I was very surprised at the amount of crap that was trapped in the filter screen at the bottom of the pump. The car only has 60,000 miles on it, and I have always used premium fuel in it.
11) I was also a bit surprised at the discolouration of the pump components. Below you can see the old and new pumps side by side.
12) It is necessary to get access to the opposite side (in this case, the left side) fuel pump, because hoses from each pump travel horizontally across the tank and connect to the other pump.
13) Here you can see a new hose from the right side pump connecting into a T fitting above the left side pump. It is easy to thread this hose across the top of the inside of the tank.
14) As mentioned earlier, there are three possible fittings on the base of each plastic cap, but only two connectors within the fuel tank. Everything is keyed, thus improper assembly is not possible.
Once the new pump has been installed, the hoses connected, and the fuel measuring probe reset into the side of the new pump, re-assembly of everything is quite straightforward. I replaced the rubber ring around the access panel opening on each side of the tank, and I also buffed up the locking rings using a wire brush (to remove corrosion) on each side.
It was not a pleasant job - your hands get covered in fuel, and there are some hazards associated with working on an open fuel tank with vapour escaping, but it is not a particularly difficult job. It is time-consuming, though.
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I am using a Hyundai Santa Fe (Petrol, 2011 Model) here in Saudi Arabia. On July 17 (11:30 pm), I was driving in a highway at about 80-90 kms/hr when suddenly my vehicle lost power (steering wheel, brake, etc).
Baed on the diagnosis of our company mechanic, it was an alternator problem. He said the alternator bearing got stuck up.
Prior to this incident, on July 7, the same vehicle got stalled twice while it's parked. In the first case, I was able to use it after jumpstarting. In the second case in the same day (4 hours after the first case), jump starting didn't work so they have to replace it with a temporary used battery. I noticed that I had a hard start (the engine responds only after 3-4 key ignition). After replacing the battery with new one, I was able to drive normally from July 9 to Jul 17, and then the incident happened as I described in the first paragraph.
Question: Is there a way to detect the alternator bearing problem before it actually breaks down? If there is, what procedure or predictive test is normally followed to identify potential problems in an alternator?
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2003 Santa Fe - Loss of power while driving on highway. Dropped from 60 to 15 MPH in matter of seconds. Feels like a couple of cylinders (3.5 liter) are not working.
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Ok, so I was driving normal highway speeds and all of a sudden, I realize a major drop in power. I pull over and restart it and it changes nothing. Now when I floor it, it takes 20-30 seconds to get to 90K.
I checked the air filter... Nothing. Used a code reader... Nothing. Then I decided to pressure test the cylinders... Nothing, except now the check engine light is on.
The Ol Dub is still drivable, but it is extremely slow and rough at idle. I am thinking it might be a MAF or fuel filter.
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Driving my V10 at around 140 km/hr (87 mph) along the highway and passing a truck (in a tunnel), all of a sudden there was a violent vibration from the roof rack. It seems like it went into its resonance frequency because as soon as I slowed down it went away, and didn't reappear again.
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I've got a problem with my touareg v10 5.0tdi because when I drive about 140km/h or more the rear suspension gets a vibrations. Sometimes I fell them more and sometimes less. And today when I was driving in the rain I notice they vibrations stopped. What could cause this vibrations of the rear suspension. i have checked wheels and tires and they are good. My touareg has the mileage 127000 km and could be possible that shaft is worn out.
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Yesterday driving on the highway, i hear a sudden "clank" and out of the corner of my eye i see my key turn itself to the off position. which i think is really strange... my rpms went to 0 and everything died.
I pulled over, put it in park. I tried to start it but the key wouldn't turn cause it locked. So I took it out and tried again. It started just fine.
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Last night was getting down to freezing. I drove out of my buddy's driveway, stopped to close the gate behind me, put it in gear and started to drive away, about 5-10mph. I left off the gas as I rounded a gentle curve, then got back on the pedal as I exited the curve. All I got was a revving engine, as if I was in neutral. Checked to make sure I was in gear, and same result. I stopped, engine running, and put it in park, and then back into gear. Nothing. Drive, low, Reverse nothing. I did see the rpm change slightly. engine runs normally.
No fluid loss, no mechanical noises indicating something breaking. No weird smells. Fluid level is as good as I could read on that crappy trans dipstick. Truck ran flawlessly up until that moment. the transmission is a BTS with about 100K, so I'm fairly certain it's not the mechanical diode notorious for that year. My problem description does not seem to fit the failed diode anyway. I did run across a post that better matched my problem description and that was the transfer case motor. I have 4WD, but was not in 4WD at the time.
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I am still failing to appropriately diagnose the problem(s) with my '03 Ford E-350 7.3L Powerstroke. This van has only 69,000 miles on it. A week or two back (just a few days back in work time) it suddenly went from running perfectly smooth, clean and wonderful to this:
- Zero power. Putting the van in gear and flooring the engine causes lots more smoke not nearly any rev of the engine and just a crawl forward.
- Lots of smoke out the back exhaust, whitish. I cannot discern wether it smells like diesel or oil (because I'm ignorant here), but the smell is very strong.
- After warming up and idling ~ 15 min I check under the coolant cap and see no signs of bubbling or disruption (from opening the cap in the coolant tank).
- After warming up there are no warning lights visible on the dash, and I don't have a computer to read codes (if there are any to read).
- I replaced the turbo up-pipes which had a visible leak previously. This did not hurt the symptoms, though no more visual leaks under the dog house.
- I thought maybe I put gasoline instead of diesel in the truck, not so.
- To do the above test I had to use the fuel pump to get gas out the tank to test. I hijacked the fuel pump output and turned the car on a few times to get gas out to a tank. The pump seemed to work just fine.
This was all very sudden which is perplexing, and, in use, the van was previously an ambulette and in my few miles with it (maybe 200-300 only) use was extremely light for such an engine/van, just driving around doing errands. I am not sure if this is relevant (no one has suggested so, yet) but before all this happened I uninstalled the rear HVAC that came with the van when I bought it. The AC lines were sealed under the hood. The coolant line was returned at the doghouse (you can see this at the beginning of the video).
At the moment the van has no power to go anywhere. I have not yet checked the CPS or IPC sensors, and understand this might be the next route in standard troubleshooting?
2003 Ford E 350 7.3L Trouble - YouTube....
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I just had my '12 GTI's 40,000 mile service done about 2 weeks ago. I put in a K&N air filter the day after the service. The only thing I noticed about the car after service was that I could smell coolant, they either spilled some or its burping some cause it was filled past the max fill line. Outside of that everything was copacetic until yesterday morning.
On my way to the gym with cruise control on ~74 mph on the highway I had sudden power loss, EPC light came on and power returned although felt reduced. When I left the gym it was off and I made it about a mile when under acceleration it hit at about 3k rpm, again sudden power loss and EPC light, power returned reduced. Drove about 5 miles to work and did a little googling with a million results.
When I left work to go home I made it about ten minutes into my drive before it happened. This time the CEL came on. I was able to drive home and back to work again this morning but I keep having power shutters followed by the EPC. I haven't had much time to dig into anything but I checked the connection of the coils and the intake connections with a flashlight at 4:30 this morning. Thinking it might be the MAF only because I recently installed the K&N and have read the oil can kill MAF's and I might stop to get a can of cleaner on my way home to try that route.
IF that doesn't work maybe I can get it on a Vag Com in the next couple days to get it sorted out.
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I have VW99 Passat 1.8L Turbo, automatic with 170K on it.
My car shop changed engine oil yesterday with 4 QTS of Mobile 5W40. Now, when I check my dipstick today, on level surface, the oil level is way too high on dipstick kink [the cross-hatched mark]. I run the engine, shut it off, and let it set for 3 min, but still the level is too high above the Mark. It wets the dipstick almost till the top of its Head.It was reading High when I first checked it, this morning, before starting my car.
It seems the oil is 'overfilled' or showing over filled; and the engine is about to throw it out from "filler cap" where Dipstick goes in the engine. I saw him using 4 cans 1 QTS oil, which I bought, into my car. They did change the "oil filter" at the same time?
Now, my car looses power while driving. When I accelerated from a stop/light, car slows down or limps. The car suffered a sudden loss of power.It runs awful for about a mile but smoothed out after acceleration.It feels like the car is running out of gas for a few seconds, then all of a sudden it kicks in. The car still drives ok though - No error messages/warnings on dash,CEL, no smoke, no hissing. I actually don't see engine oil thrown out or leaking though.
I don't know if the shop drained the "intercooler" while changing the oil, also I know nothing about its importance to my power loss issue. The net search manual/states "The engine oil, above the level, can be drawn into the crankcase ventilation system, and enter the atmosphere via the exhaust system". But it does says about damaging the engine/car.
Should I be worried about the damage to the engine?
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I have a 2004 F250 6.0 DuperDuty with about 170,000 miles on it, so far no major break-downs, just a starter and a blinker relay, but now I have a problem.
When I start now, the truck starts fine and it sounds fine, but it has almost no power even if I floor the gas peddle, there is a delay of like 2-3 seconds and then responds slowly, like some tractor. Eventually it starts to move slowly, and after it warms up (after a few minutes), the gas peddle responds more normal.
Also - at about 45mpg, at lower RPMs about 1250, the engine starts to shake (weird), it doesn't do it at idle about 850 RPM, or when I get it up to about 1800RPM+, but at about that 1250 RPM it does do it, luckily I driver locally for a few miles.
What could this be ? What exactly happens when I press on the gas peddle, what systems are involved and in which order?
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I've got a 2004 F250, 6.0, with 150k miles. I was pulling a motorcycle trailer uphill in the mountains when suddenly I couldn't go over 10 to 15 mph. All the gauges read good but it just couldn't get any power.
Got to the top and checked over everything. Didn't see any issues. Drove it home (200 miles) the next day. It drove okay on highway but it felt like the turbo wasn't coming on. Coolant was low and EGR was gunked up but only slightly wet. From what I read, it sounds like EGR cooler is failing but would that cause the turbo not to come on or feel like that loss of power? Reading another thread, I thought it might be the fuel pickup but I dropped the tank and the sending unit looked very good.
I'm ready to throw on a bulletproof egr cooler, oil cooler and rebuild the turbo if necessary but hate to get to the end and find out none of that worked.
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My 2011 6.7 suddenly lost power, started making noise and then stalled out.
After finding out that there are zero 24 hour service companies available in the LA area, I was able to get it towed to the local Ford dealer.the next day they told me it had dropped the #5 cylinder and that they would have to tear into it to find out what happened.
While I realize that any thoughts on the situation would be primarily idle speculation, what would cause this to happen at only 125,000 miles.
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Ok I have an early 2004 F250. Recently changed out the #8 injector and then had to replace the ICP Sensor. Was running great then while driving down the road just died all of a sudden. Would start right back up with no issues. Continue driving and I am getting intermittent power loss. Also noticed that when it would lose power suddenly the glow plug light would come on.
Codes are P0102, P0113, P0272, and P1000.
P0102 Mass or Volume flow circuit low input
P0113 Intake Temp circuit High input
These are just soft codes not setting a light off. MAF is plugged in and I will check wiring here later after work but could this be causing my intermittent issues?
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Earlier this evening on the highway while in cruise control I had a strange issue. Going up a slight incline all of the sudden I lost power, my ESP and EPC lights came on, and the engine was running very strange.
It wasn't stuttering but was louder and vibrating a whole lot more than normal. I pulled over and shut the car off for a couple mins, started it up, everything was normal and continued. About an hour later the same thing happened and when I started up the car again the check engine light was on.
I had my room mate scan it when I got back and it came up with ECM and PCM processor errors. Not sure what kind of problems this would be. All the searches on cruise control didn't turn up anything like this. What the problem would be? The cars a turbo'd r32.
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This has happened to me three times now. The first time was at a stop sign, the second going 70mph on the highway, and the third time at a stop sign. I will be driving and then all of a sudden the engine loses power. The more I push on the gas, the more the engine wants to die. If the engine stays running after I pull over, it idles very rough, and still if I press the gas, it wants to die. This seems to only happen after driving long distances for maybe an hour or so.
When this happens, if I let the car sit for about an hour, it will start up just fine, idle smooth, and drive normally. This is a 1992 Dodge Dynasty with the 3.3L V6, Fuel Injected engine. The car only has 78,000 miles on it and is in excellent condition. It's such a nice car that I would like to figure out what's going on with the engine because I would like to drive it for a lot longer. So far I have replaced the ignition coil pack, the oxygen sensor, map sensor, fuel filter, and spark plugs an wires.
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Took my 850 Turbo out on the freeway today, and when I put the pedal to the floor on the onramp there was a very disconcerting loss of power just as the turbo was really kicking in. No issue under mild to medium boost, but when pushed hard there is a short loss of power/hesitation, almost like a backfire, then boosts again, then the same power loss until I back off on the gas. Cannot get full boost without this happening.
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